Berlin Summer Courses for physiologically-psychologically healthy pianism

oh nein!! - - - für Wehwehchen am Händchen bin ich wirklich nicht zuständig!! :

wer ein Aua hat, der muss dorthin gehen, wo das kuriert wird - wo das ist, darüber herrschen (erbittert) geteilte Meinungen :D

ich sags nochmals! Brennneselkuren wirken Wunder. Eine Nacht auf Brennnesel schlafen und man denkt danach an nichts anderes :D:D:D
so neben bei, dies ist kein Witz! darüber gibts genug zu lesen.
 
ich sags nochmals! Brennneselkuren wirken Wunder. (...)
so neben bei, dies ist kein Witz! darüber gibts genug zu lesen.
sehr richtig!!
und wer´s nicht glaubt, wird hier fündig:
Arno Schmidt: "Die Gelehrtenrepublik. Roman aus den Roßbreiten" (da findet sich eine ganz exquisite Stelle mit detaillierter Beschreibung der Brennesselmethode, ihrer Wirksamkeit und ihrem sinnvollsten Anwendungsgebiet)
:D:D:D

oh bitte Bitte BITTE hoffentlich liest das irgendwer!!!........
 
oh bitte Bitte BITTE hoffentlich liest das irgendwer!!!........

Ich weiß nur, daß Brennnesseln von einigen "Spezialisten" zu gewissen, nicht näher bezeichneten Zwecken, eingesetzt werden. Darauf steh' ich allerdings nicht, und wer das näher wissen möchte, wird (keine Ahnung) vielleicht in einem Erotik-Forum fündig :D

War das sowas, rolf? Jetzt mußt Du's uns aber auch sagen! :)
 
sehr richtig!!
und wer´s nicht glaubt, wird hier fündig:
Arno Schmidt: "Die Gelehrtenrepublik. Roman aus den Roßbreiten" (da findet sich eine ganz exquisite Stelle mit detaillierter Beschreibung der Brennesselmethode, ihrer Wirksamkeit und ihrem sinnvollsten Anwendungsgebiet)
:D:

oh bitte Bitte BITTE hoffentlich liest das irgendwer!!!........

ich habe nachgeschaut ! fand nur einen Preis von 19.90 :D:D:D
 
War das sowas, rolf? Jetzt mußt Du's uns aber auch sagen! :)
ein ritter so geleret waz
daz er in den buochen laz
meint Walther von der Vogelweide dazu ;)

...ich hab ein (lesenswertes hochamüsantes) Buch empfohlen, dass (zwerchfellerschütternde) Infos zur Brennesselmethode enthält - also: lesen (selber) :):)

@Dreiklang: man kann besagtes Buch übrigens als Science Fiction einordnen - das müsste dir behagen!
 
... aber ich werde demnächst wieder einem größeren Buchladen einen Besuch abstatten, von dem her ;)
 
Hi Gentlemen. Since my original English post elicited such a strong reaction, I'll take the liberty for the sake of clarity and time to answer in English. I realize this excludes some people from the conversation. I'm sorry about that.
I'm glad that my post served to start such a jovial conversation. But I think it would be good to clear up some misperceptions.
Stephan:
Also: Klavierspielen mit Noten-Lesen ohne Verletzungen
von irgendwas: Wie geht das? Lernt man das bei Ihnen?
That's probably a topic for another post. But I think the question was posed a little ironically, so maybe you don't need a full answer? ;-)
Rolf- where to start?
it´s really astonishing!
if 19th century traditions (of playing the piano) are wrong and maybe dangerous - why the hell is piano music of the 19th century wonderful?? ...and why had all those 19th century guys like Chopin and Liszt (and their students) been able to play 19th century piano music without any health problems?...
I've searched my original post through and through and I just can't seem to find the reference where I condemn Chopin and Liszt and their students as "wrong and maybe dangerous". Please let me know if I've misunderstood my own text! Or could it be that you really REALLY misunderstood what I wrote? (Give that I'm speaking a different language than is normally spoken here I have a lot of sympathy for that). Please let me clarify.
Piano pedagogy often relies heavily on teaching traditions developed throughout the 19th century that focus on subjecting a student to a rigorous program of study, requiring endless (and often mindless) repetition, uncritical adherence to a prescribed system of musical values, and the potential of engaging in harmful psychological mechanisms of stifling interdependence between the teacher and student. Traditional pedagogy can also place excessive strain on the body by engaging in physiologically unhealthy practices.
The teaching traditions I'm taking about have nothing to do with Chopin or Liszt, or Schumann, Mendelssohn or Brahms. They were the genial exceptions to the predominant musical culture. And I'm not condemning all of the pedagogical practices of the 19th century, but the ones I specifically mentioned, IN THE SAME SENTENCE: Rote learning, mindless repetition, misunderstandings of human anatomy and physiology and hero-worshiping teacher dynamics. That the great piano-composers forged their own path through this rather numbing educational model speaks only to their brilliance.
My course is not intended to discard any of the positive legacy we've received from the 19th century. It may be questioning some lingering presumptions about how the transference of this legacy can take place. It's not possible to generalize teaching styles, but I've encountered in my experience and in that of my colleagues some elements in piano pedagogy that might serve from modernization. I'd like to go into detail, but this probably isn't the right forum to do that. As many of Liszt's students in Weimar experienced, the more advanced a student gets, there tends to be less intimate involvement on the part of the teacher in basic technical clarification, the assumption being that this must have been 'accomplished' earlier with less accomplished teachers. I find in my experience working with students, that as they might start working with master teachers, they might start losing contact with basic components of their playing mechanism. And as pressure grows and stress increases, a less clearly-defined structure of technique might start to falter and become unreliable. My goal as a teacher is to supplement the student's instruction with a kind of support that clarifies physiological processes through a better understanding of how our body and mind functions. Many pianists (and many great pianists) don't need to involve themselves in this kind of self-awareness. They approach many aspects of their work intuitively, and if that functions well for them, well more power to them! But I've encountered several pianists who lack a kind of self-knowledge (physically and psychologically) and experience a crisis when their intuition starts to falter. Arrau described in detail the process of pianistic and psychological self-awareness following a debilitating crisis in his 20s.
Tastenjunkie: I really appreciate your thoughtful criticism. But I'm struggling to understand how you might have come to the conclusion that I'm offering something that doesn't require intense effort? If I've lead you to believe this than i must change something in my text! This isn't a quick fix to help unmotivated pianists fudge better results. You get what you put into it. I have sympathy for amateur pianists who are really willing to learn, but just lack the time and infrastructure in their lives to realize their goals. I try to accommodate their wishes, but it's clear that the best results only come from a lot of very hard work. Can you explain to me how you might have thought that I was indicating otherwise? Thanks.
I realize that there are several "methods" that promise quick results without much effort, I don't participate in them. I've never seen good results from them.
Rolf again, I'm I understanding you correctly?
z.B. ein Mensch, dem das Händchen wehe tut, wenn er Rachmaninov trommelt: dieser Mensch wird glücklich sein, wenn ihm irgendwo dazu verholfen wird, künftig Rachmaninov ohne wehe tuendes Händchen zu trommeln :

aber wohin soll dieser Mensch sich wenden?
zu Frau Taubman?
zu Herrn Feuchtwanger?
zum Sommerkurs dieses Fadens?
zum Physiotherapeuten?
zum magischen Wunderschamanen?

...Fragen über Fragen...

These are kind of radically different approaches to hand injuries. And speaking of a pianist's hand injury with this kind of levity is a little like speaking of a cancer patient's "Tumorchen". If anyone is interested, i wrote a little about my own experience with hand injury. It's a heavy topic, so I hesitate to mention it in such a light-hearted discussion, but here it goes: essays before a piano: The Elephant on the Table (or Piano)
Thanks for your interest.
 

The teaching traditions I'm taking about have nothing to do with Chopin or Liszt, or Schumann, Mendelssohn or Brahms. The teaching traditions I'm taking about have nothing to do with Chopin or Liszt, or Schumann, Mendelssohn or Brahms. They were the genial exceptions to the predominant musical culture.
d´accord!

And I'm not condemning all of the pedagogical practices of the 19th century, but the ones I specifically mentioned, IN THE SAME SENTENCE: Rote learning, mindless repetition, misunderstandings of human anatomy and physiology and hero-worshiping teacher dynamics. That the great piano-composers forged their own path through this rather numbing educational model speaks only to their brilliance.
well, this is the dark side - but do you really think, only the dark side is typical for 19th Centusry pianistic??
we have the pianistic traditions from Liszt-Bülow-Klindworth-Rubinstein-Goldenweiser-Feinberg-Neuhaus-Richter-Margulis and so on: i don´t think, that they ever had been teaching wrong practise... (and that is only one of a lot of 19th Cebtury Traditions)

i know: the picture, the image of poor 19th century students with endless f.e. octave-repetirions 10 haurs a day, metronome, working like machines (of early industrial times) -- this horror picture well known (in Germany f.e. "Czerny oder die Einzelhaft am Klavier" and "prestississimo" of Prof. Grete Wehmeier (who herself plays terrible slow...)) -- -- that is no complete description of the pianistic traditions (if it would be, nobody today could be able to play Liszt or Chopin) :)

I find in my experience working with students, that as they might start working with master teachers, they might start losing contact with basic components of their playing mechanism. And as pressure grows and stress increases, a less clearly-defined structure of technique might start to falter and become unreliable.
this can be the result of wrong practise years before, that means they don´t have learned the optimal way(s) of finger, hand and arm moving (and so on, i´m sure you know: no really relaxed staccato, no lagato cantabile, no difference between sounds and so on.........) !! But i can´t see any reason, that specially the dark side of 19th Century made all those problems - and i don´t think that we today know more about piano technique than Liszt´s "technical studys" or Brahms "51 Exercises" (and today we can know, how to use this!)

it is necessary to teach the correct basics - but to do this, we must not be angry with some forgotten 19th century things... ;)

(1) a better understanding of how our body and (2) mind functions.
(1) fantastic!
(2) ...uh... "mind"... that is the special theme of psycologists and neurologists, and they don´t know much about piano practise :D


These are kind of radically different approaches to hand injuries. And speaking of a pianist's hand injury with this kind of levity is a little like speaking of a cancer patient's "Tumorchen".
please don´t be angry about this ironic kind of humor - remember Bulgakov´s chapter on "Lungensarkom" in "Master and Margarita" :)

but there´s a problematic thing: we have today a big market, where a lot of "specialists" try to sell something like "pianistic health" or "how to use the power of mind and brain" and so on.... (if you want to read very special informations you could search "Wei Tsin Fu" and his pianistic "brain academy")
 
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So, jetzt habt Ihr alle demonstriert, wie gut Euer Englisch ist. Ich bin aber verwundert, wie einfach es ist, Euch eine Sprache aufzudrücken, die nicht Eure eigene ist. Wo doch nur die wenigsten in der Lage sind, in einer Fremdsprache so nuanciert zu formulieren wie in ihrer Muttersprache. Warum also laßt Ihr Euch dieser Möglichkeit berauben?
betrachte es doch einfach als eine Form der Höflichkeit, auf englisch zu antworten, wenn auf englisch gepostet wird ;) :)
 
ich amüsiere mich, da gibt hodonnell Antworten in englisch zu den deutsch verfassten Aussagen von Stephan und Rolf. D.h. hodonnell scheint die Deutsche Sprache zu verstehen.
In Frankreich währe so was niemals möglich, da dieses Verhalten eine Beleidigung ist und als Provokation, Affront eingestuft wird. Wer in Frankreich unterrichten will muss die französische Sprache beherrschen ansonsten ist es hoffnungslos, ausgenommen sind grosse Kapazitäten da zeigt man sich von der toleranten Seite.
Da kann hodonnell von Glück reden, mit den gutmütigen Deutschen zu tun zu haben.:p
 
Natürlich wäre es einfacher für viele Leser hier, wenn Heather O´Donnell ihre Beiträge hier in der deutschen Sprache verfassen würde. Ich vermute mal, dass sie als Amerikanerin in ihrer Muttersprache präziser ihre Anliegen formulieren kann und möchte. Ich finde das absolut in Ordnung und finde es gut, dass sie als Profi mit interessanten Gedanken und Ansätzen den Weg ins Forum gefunden hat.
 
ich amüsiere mich, da gibt hodonnell Antworten in englisch zu den deutsch verfassten Aussagen von Stephan und Rolf. D.h. hodonnell scheint die Deutsche Sprache zu verstehen.
In Frankreich währe so was niemals möglich, da dieses Verhalten eine Beleidigung ist und als Provokation, Affront eingestuft wird. Wer in Frankreich unterrichten will muss die französische Sprache beherrschen ansonsten ist es hoffnungslos, ausgenommen sind grosse Kapazitäten da zeigt man sich von der toleranten Seite.
Da kann hodonnell von Glück reden, mit den gutmütigen Deutschen zu tun zu haben.:p

Bien au contraire, monsieur! Voilà précisément pouquoi la France est depuis plusieurs décennies en train de perdre son importance global: On ignore tout bètement l'existance d'autres langues. Ca fonctionnait bien il y a 100 ans avec un empire global sous commande mais aujourd'hui... Je dis cela après avoir vecu deux bonnes années dans votre beau pays. Beau, mais ignorant...
 

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